measuring engagement is like weighing souls

[Sean Trainor]

The science is questionable and it is focussed on the wrong things.
more here...
http://bit.ly/9aCf9b

[David Bowles]

Ryan, thank you....right on target. The problem which people who hate surveys have is this: what replaces them? As you say, try talking to 4000 people. But it goes beyond that:

--talking to your people means they have no confidentiality; we know from many studies that that changes what they say. This also means no identification of a "boss from hell" who keeps a low profile and makes sure his people never tell (in person) how bad things are in his department.

--talking to them means no data, which means no sense of "how we are doing" over time, no sense of exactly where we are starting from, etc. It also means no internal benchmarks so that "centers of excellence" can be identified. Trust me, I have run hundreds of focus groups, the data from those pales in comparison to surveys.

I could go on an on; but you hit the nail on the head. There is no substitute for surveys (social media? confidentiality issues? naaaah)

David
www.moraleatwork.com

[Gary Cattermole]

Agree with both sentiments there David.

[Gary Cattermole]

'How else do we measure the feelings of 4000 people' - exactly Ryan.

When challenged to find an alternative approach to allowing every employee an opportunity to have their say, in a confidential and anonymous forum, I have yet to hear of a better alternative than the survey (which is, I think it is fair to say, a tried and trusted tool).

I still find it interesting that many people are quite happy for organisations to measure the fiscal side of their businesses but when it comes to the human aspects and in particular engagement, many struggle with the idea of monitoring and tracking engagement.

Actual employee is engagement is a voluntary process, you can't force it upon employees but using a tool such as a survey you can begin to measure and track it. As you rightly say, they survey is only one part of the process - running a survey on its own will not help an organisation instigate positive change but it will provide a base point, internal benchmarking opportunities and, in my experience, focus senior, middle and line managers on aspects of engagement that maybe they had not realised were quite so important.

[Sean Trainor]

I don't think you can measure feelings and get any real insights (especially if you aggregate results over 4000 people). I felt great this morning and shit this afternoon. Ask me again tommorrow.

[Ben Simonton]

"'How else do we measure the feelings of 4000 people' - exactly Ryan.

That pretty well sums up the feeling of Ryan, David and Gary. They have solved engagement.

I say - "Measure feelings? Why bother?"

For myself if I was in charge of 4000, I would listen to some of the 4000 and start working on what they wanted to do a better job,.I would listen and fix support, then listen to more and fix more support, again and again forever. That is what I did with a 1300 person unionized group and in four years productivity per person rose over 300%, morale rose out of sight north as did creativity, innovation and retention.

Measure feelings? For what purpose? Seems like a total waste of scarce resources to me because the managerial actions required to achieve total engagement must be continued forever in order to maintain total engagement.

Best regards, Ben

[Gary Cattermole]

Quote 'That pretty well sums up the feeling of Ryan, David and Gary. They have solved engagement.'

At what point did anyone say they'd solved engagement? If you also believe that surveys just measure feelings then that seems a little mis-guided Ben.

[Ben Simonton]

Gary,

Glad to hear that you don't think surveys solve engagement.

And about what they measure, I don't really care. They are a waste of time for a variety of reasons, the most important ones being that they waste scarce assets, do not assist in any way the process of allowing employees to engage, and actually make that process harder to perform.

Besides, disengaged employees don't dare answer a survey honestly for fear of their jobs or because they are in the habit of telling their bosses what the bosses want to hear or both.

Best regards, Ben

[Gary Cattermole]

And you believe that disengaged employees would be happy to open up one to one or in a group environment with their managers/directors?

[Ben Simonton]

Gary,

Surely you jest!

No, they don't, not easily.

In each of the four successful turnarounds I conducted, the largest being a 1300 person unionized group, it was easy for me (an experienced manager) to find support problems to fix - problems in such things as tools, parts, material, training, discipline, documentation, technical support, procedures, policies, direction, etc. All of these are the responsibility of management to provide to the workforce. In groups sorely needing a turnaround, support is greatly lacking and thus "leads" employees to treat their work with the same level of disrespect.

But it was easy to ask about these in group meetings and one-on-one. And since they were such glaring errors, they were relatively easy to change.

But as I consistently without fail solicited their opinions of what should be changed, how to change, and the results of changes with me listening to them and getting back to them every step of the way, the more they realized I was not the normal top-down command and control manager but one who actually wanted to hear what they had to say and who totally respected them and really believed them to be more important than I.

Thus they kept getting more and more open with me until as one observer said of my people - "it is impossible to tell the difference between union and management".

In short, you have to prove to employees that you are worthy of their trust and hard work before they will open up or improve their own performance. Once you do prove yourself worthy by how you treat employees, the heavens open up and innovation, creativity, productivity and morale go through the roof.

Best regards, Ben

[David Bowles]

Gary, you asked the key question!! Of course they don't. There is no substitute for surveys when it comes to confidentiality.

Ben you were doubtless a good manager. If everyone did what you did, we could close the survey business. But they don't.

I cannot tell you how many critical situations I have uncovered with surveys, which were totally under the management radar. Local and top management, both. Maybe you and the other "survey skeptics" here just never saw a great survey in action? One where both management and the workers were dying to get the results...meaning that even though they would chat about work together at lunch, etc. they still did not really know what their peers' feelings were in the recesses of their minds. Its the reason why, almost invariably, people in our surveys who were asked what topic of communication about the organization most interested them, picked "the results of this survey" above and beyond anything else.

David
www.moraleatwork.com

[David Bowles]

Ben there is a fundamental issue here. Although we throw around words like "feelings" its really "opinions" which we measure with surveys.

And why are opinions so important? Because like beliefs, they form the basis of everything we do. No matter what "reality" is about something, its the opinions about it which will drive behavior.

Let me ask you a question: if 90% of a manager's people have the opinion that his ability is poor, don't you think that has significant implications for how those people will behave? I can tell you from experience, it has a huge impact.

Workers' opinions will determine if they engage or not, its as simple as that.

David
www.moraleatwork.com

[Ben Simonton]

David,

You wrote - "Let me ask you a question: if 90% of a manager's people have the opinion that his ability is poor, don't you think that has significant implications for how those people will behave? I can tell you from experience, it has a huge impact."

I agree with huge, and it is also a very clear indicator that the manager needs extensive training or replacement.

I also agree that a survey can reveal problems. But those are easy for an insider to find with the right skills.

Providing surveys to clients can be a lucrative business. You do what you can.

Best regards, Ben